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Post by AxeMental on Jul 4, 2005 10:11:34 GMT -5
I have always been under the impression (from both reading the DMG and web chatter) that level limits and class restrictions for demi-humans apply to PCs only (and not NPCs). Is this correct?
I believe level limits for NPCs is mentioned some place (if you have a page reference let me know) but race/class combos is a little fuzzier. I have always been under the impression that demi-human NPCs can be a class only if it is allowed in the PH or specifically stated to exist as a NPC (a halfling druid NPC). Is this your take as well?
In otherwords, an elf PC can't be a multi-class assassin/mu, however it would be allowable to have a NPC elf multi class assassin/MU (in that an elf can be either of these classes as a PC). However, a Dwarf assassin/magic-user would be impossible (in Gygaxian Greyhawk) because a dwarf can't be a single class magician.
Is this class/multi-class demi-human topic mentioned in the DMG or perhaps a Dragon?
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Post by foster1941 on Jul 5, 2005 12:12:07 GMT -5
What you describe is implicit in the rules (with the mention of NPC-only demi-human clerics in the PH and gnome illusionist/assassins in the DMG) but not AFAIK explicitly stated anywhere. The official UA errata in Dragon #103 included a big list of allowable multiclass combos by race and then mentions that some of the combinations (especially assassin-combos) probably shouldn't be allowed for PCs, which could be what you're thinking about:
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Post by AxeMental on Jul 5, 2005 16:24:40 GMT -5
Awsome Foster. Thanks for posting that, I don't have the old Dragons so.
Yeah, thats exactly what I was looking for, and yeah the way we play it is any combos outside the PH is not Koshure and isn't allowed for anything but NPCs (and only rarely). I assume this extensive list is Gygax approved (if not Gygax created)?
It pretty much jives with what I was thinking. I do hate though that it's post UA.
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Post by foster1941 on Jul 5, 2005 16:42:35 GMT -5
Yeah, "Gygax approved (though not Gygax created)" seems to be the case here. Note that there's at least one bit of errata to this errata, though: illusionist/thief is a permitted multiclass for surface gnomes per the PH but isn't listed here.
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Post by foster1941 on Jul 5, 2005 16:56:45 GMT -5
Oh, and FWIW here's the changes I'd make to this list for my own games (for PCs, at least):
I don't allow full elves to be druids or rangers at all, I don't allow non-'evil' races to be cleric/thieves or multiclassed assassins, and I don't allow any druid or ranger multiclasses except for cleric/ranger and druid/ranger (the latter a special case because I allow half-elf and halfling druids to be NG as well as TN, but with a level limit).
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Post by AxeMental on Jul 6, 2005 11:40:13 GMT -5
Interesting, a mutli classed druid, thats one I haven't seen before. I have always limited druids, paladins and monks to single class only.
I also don't allow full elves to be rangers or druids.
Did some of these combos come out of modules published earlier?
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Post by foster1941 on Jul 6, 2005 12:05:24 GMT -5
Did some of these combos come out of modules published earlier? The druid/ranger was mentioned in one of EGG's Dragon articles, and Curley Greenleaf from the Gord novels was described as a druid/ranger (that same article also mentioned the druid/ranger/magic-user, which was dropped from the above list, presumably because it was deemed just a bit too gross...). The MMII description of wild elves mentions druid/fighters (but, curiously, this combination isn't allowed for wild elf PCs per the list). IIRC there were drow characters in the D series who were multiclassed assassins. I have no possible idea why UA allowed drow elves to be rangers, as the two seem almost entirely antithetical. Also note: more errata for the errata -- fighter/magic-user isn't listed as a possibility anywhere! Obviously this should be allowed for all types of elves (except possibly wild elves -- are wild elves allowed to be magic-users? I'll have to check the MMII description again...). I've updated my 'revised' list above accordingly. |
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Post by AxeMental on Jul 6, 2005 13:14:26 GMT -5
I always assumed Curley Greenleaf had retired from being a ranger and moved on to being a druid (wasn't he described as being over-wieght? thats not very rangerish). Can a demi-human do that (start a single class and switch to a new single class at some future point, in a similar way to humans taking two classes) or must they start multi-classed?
In other words can a elf magic user at some point stop being a magic user and start being a thief only (or at some point just add the thief class as if he started that way); or must he start at 1st level as a thief magic user (if he wants to ever do both)?
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Post by foster1941 on Jul 6, 2005 13:24:56 GMT -5
The appendix to Saga of Old City (where it gives Gord's stats) describes Curley as a multiclassed druid/ranger, but perhaps a ranger who switched to druid would work just as well (since characters in novels don't necessarily have to follow the same rules as characters in games).
The dual-classing rules in the PH specifically say that only humans can do it, so an elf can't start out as a single-classed magic-user and then become a single-classed thief, he must be a multiclassed magic-user/thief from the beginning. (Note that this is one of the common complaints 3E fans level against the 1E/2E multi- and dual-classing rules).
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Post by foster1941 on Jul 6, 2005 13:50:47 GMT -5
I have no possible idea why UA allowed drow elves to be rangers, as the two seem almost entirely antithetical. FWIW I just asked Gary about this and he responded that drow rangers aren't intended to be the actual ranger class/archetype as described in the PH but rather 'ranger-analogues' who perform the same functions (scouting, tracking, warding, etc.) for drow society as 'standard' rangers do for human society, and thus have similar abilities. Therefore drow 'rangers' are as chaotically evil as any other drow, and by taking UA literally and creating a good-aligned surface-dwelling drow ranger (Drizzt Do'urden) R.A. Salvatore completely missed the point... |
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Post by PapersAndPaychecks on Jul 7, 2005 16:02:08 GMT -5
Actually Foster, I suspect Gary of retconning here.
I suspect that the list of allowable classes for Dark Elves was a cut and paste job from the list of allowable classes for High Elves. Then I suspect that someone stuck some level ceilings on the various classes without ever questioning the actual idea of a DE ranger.
Druid/ranger is frowned upon owing to: (1) alignment constraints, and (2) my dislike of extreme munchkinism (druid and ranger are two of the most powerful classes, particularly at low level).
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