Going to 0 and lower.

[AxeMental]

I have read alot of opinions on how this works. So what really is supposed to happen in AD&D by the freagin' book.



1. when you go to zero do you go uncon. or can you still move around.

2. Is there really some point where a person gets scarring.

3. If you go to -3 from a single blow do you really die, or does death only occur at -10.

4. What is the rule for having to rest. If you go to zero and get healed do you need to rest? What exactly can you do while in rest mode. Can you memorize spells carry stuff, etc.

Please supply page references if you have them.
Piece out.

[TheDungeonDelver]

axemental said:

I have read alot of opinions on how this works. So what really is supposed to happen in AD&D by the freagin' book.



1. when you go to zero do you go uncon. or can you still move around.

2. Is there really some point where a person gets scarring.

3. If you go to -3 from a single blow do you really die, or does death only occur at -10.

4. What is the rule for having to rest. If you go to zero and get healed do you need to rest? What exactly can you do while in rest mode. Can you memorize spells carry stuff, etc.

Please supply page references if you have them.
Piece out.

My old understanding:

0 = unconcious, but not dying

Reduced to 0 or lower in a single round = unconcious and up to -9, bleeding out.

-1 to -9 = unconcious and bleeding out, losing 1 hp/rnd until -10 which is death.

Full round of aid administered before -10 = not dying, stabilized. In a coma BTB, must heal BTB.

My new understanding:

0 = unconcious but not dying

Reduced to -3 or lower with a single blow = dead

-1 to -9 = unconcious, bleeding out.

-10 = dead.

Full round of aid administered (w/o interruption) before -10 (unless dropped to -3 in a single round) = not dying, in a coma BTB. Must heal BtB, unless Death's Door is cast then at 0 hits and merely unconcious but not dying.

[AxeMental]

Yeah, that was always my understanding as well. At zero your out but not loosing a HP a round. At -1 you start bleeding 1hp till you die at -10.
The resting, scarring and moving around at or below zero rules I have never seen played (I have only read about them at these boards).

[Semaj The Silent]

From the DMG, page 82:

Zero Hit Points: When any creature is brought to 0 hit points (optionally as low as -3 hit points if from the same blow which brought the total to 0), it is unconcious. In each of the next succedding rounds 1 additional (negative) point will be lost until -10 is reached and the creature dies. Such loss and death are caused from bleeding, shock, convulsions, non-respiration, and similar causes. It ceases immediately on any round a friendly creature administers aid to the unconcious one. Aid consisters fo binding wounds, starting respiration, administering a daught, or otherwise doing whatever is necesary to restory life.

So it reads: hit 0 and you go unconcious and start bleeding out. Once you reach -10, you're dead, unless someone intervenes.

It goes on to say that reaching -6 could result in scarring or loss of some body part...depending and if the DM chooses.

[AxeMental]

OK pg 82 by the book it looks like:
Optional:
1. at 0 to as low as -3 stay consc. If allowing a PC to stay consc. till -3 it does not disallow fighting casting of spells etc for that character.

2. Scarring below -6 is optional (and apparently can occur from bleeding out from a relatively minor injury (starting at 0).

Not optional:

1. Starting at 0 you will bleed 1 HP of damage until a round of aid is administered. (I always thought if you were taken to 0 you were stable at 0...I guess I was wrong).

2. If taken to zero (or optionally to as low as -3) and your revived your in a Corna for 1-6 turns and must rest 1 full week in a useless state.

3. There is no mention of dieing before reaching -10 from a severe blow. Someone at another site (OS?) was under the impression that death would occure if brought to a low enough point (I think it was below -3 from a single blow). Or perhaps I'm missing something.

The only way I've seen it done sitting for over 20 DMs in 3 states was this:

No resting requirements after being healed; at zero you are uncons. and are stable (only at -1 or lower do you start bleeding etc. out). I have also never seen the scarring option used.

Just out of curiosity, how many play the official way; and if you do do you play multiple PCs?
I have a feeling that the resting rule (1 full week) is perhaps the most ignored because of the break it causes in game flow.

[foster1941]

The way I play it: When you drop to 0 (or as low as -3 by the same blow that dropped you to 0) you're unconscious and bleeding 1 hp/round. When you hit -10 hp (or -4 or lower from the same blow that dropped you to 0, or any additional blows at 0 or below) you're dead. It takes one character one round to stop bleeding/hp loss, and doesn't require any spells, special equipment, etc. If the character drops to -6 or below before bleeding is stopped he may have scarring, missing limb, etc. (at DM discretion). After the character has been stabilized he will wake up from his coma 1-6 turns later, but will still be at his previous negative hp total (i.e. if the character bled to -5 before being stabilized he will wake up 1-6 turns later, conscious but with -5 hp). Any blow to a character with a negative hp total will kill him. The character can't fight, memorize or cast spells, or move at greater than 1/2 normal speed. The character requires at least 1 full week of rest before he may resume normal activity. Even if magic (healing spells, potions, keoghtom's ointment, etc.) restores the character to positive hp he still faces these same restrictions (except for being automatically killed by any blow). The only ways to circumvent this rest requirement are the death's door and heal spells.

This is all BtB per my understanding -- see DMG p. 82 and the description of the Death's Door spell in UA. I know some (most?) people disagree with my reading that a character who has been stabilized regains consciousness with a negative hp total and insist that the character must be healed up to a positive hp total (through magic or at the 'natural' rate of 1 hp/day) before regaining consciousness. The reason I prefer to have characters regain consciousness with negative hp is because I like the way it encourages players to use their healing magic on viable characters to keep them from dropping below 0 in the first place rather than conserving their healing magic as a contingency to 'revive' invalid characters and allow them to limp home. Likewise, since many low level adventures will end with more than half of the characters at 0 or below (see the current PbP adventure at OSU), I prefer that the invalid characters be able to limp home under their own power rather than requiring the remaining viable character(s) to carry/drag them (or, even worse, be forced to leave their bodies in the dungeon).

[AxeMental]

Foster wrote: "(or -4 or lower from the same blow that dropped you to 0, or any additional blows at 0 or below) you're dead."

Do you have the exact quote you got this you die if taken to -4 or lower from a single blow part from? I’m just not getting that.

I agree that additional blows after your brought to uncons (0 or lower) will kill (at a rate of 1 target per round), but is Gygax saying if your at say 5 HP and get knocked down to -5 in one hit your dead? Why wouldn't you just be uncons. and bleed out till you reach –10 and at that point die. Perhaps I missed something. I'll take another look tonight.

Or is this something out of UA?


As for the resting thing, I'll have to see the UA spell.

[Semaj The Silent]

I don't read that either, Axe. I think Foster is saying that's how he does it.

Ever since I started playing serious AD&D, we've always used the rules for death as given on page 82. Any aid from another PC or whoever brings the total back to 1, and that patient must rest for a week to recover from the physical shock of it all.

[foster1941]

The "zero hit points" rule on DMG p. 82 is a special case exception to the general rule (as stated in the PH) that a character is dead if he has 0 or fewer hit points. So you should append that assumed general rule to the special case rule on p. 82, making it read something like this:

Normally, when any character is brought to 0 or fewer hit points he is dead. However, if the character is brought to exactly 0 hit points (optionally as low as -3 hit points if from the same blow which brought the total to 0), he is not dead, but rather unconcious. In such a case, in each of the next succeding rounds 1 additional (negative) point will be lost until -10 is reached and the creature dies.

By this reading, if should be obvious that if the character is brought below 0 hit points (or optionally to -4 or fewer hit points by the same blow which brought the total to 0) this special case rule does not apply and the general rule (that hp 0 or below = dead) applies. Make sense?

[Semaj The Silent]

Where does it say that in the PH? I'm seeing references to HPs only on pagees 34 and 12. Neither mention the 0-dead scenario.

[foster1941]

semajthesilent said:

Where does it say that in the PH? I'm seeing references to HPs only on pagees 34 and 12. Neither mention the 0-dead scenario.

I believe it's in the combat section, after the spell descriptions. I don't have the book in front of me to grab an exact page reference, but I'm ~95% sure it's in there somewhere. If no one beats me to it I'll try to dig up the exact quote when I get home from work.

[Semaj The Silent]

Nevermind...I see it on page 105:

Damage is meted out in hit points. If any creature reaches 0 or negative hit points, it is dead. Certain magical means will prevent actual death, particularly a ring of regeneration.

Hmm. Given that DMG and PH were written at different times with input from different people, here's a little conflict that needs to be solved. Too bad Gary's reluctant to answer questions about D&D mechanics anymore, or I'd ask him.

[northrundicandus]

semajthesilent said:

Nevermind...I see it on page 105:

Hmm. Given that DMG and PH were written at different times with input from different people, here's a little conflict that needs to be solved. Too bad Gary's reluctant to answer questions about D&D mechanics anymore, or I'd ask him.

Since the DMG came out after the PHB, it is generally assumed (by many) to trump anything in the Player's book.

[Semaj The Silent]

I agree. It's interesting though that the rule gets changed in a matter of...what...a year or so. I just wonder what the story behind it would be.

[AxeMental]

I don't own D&D and rarely played it, but didn't a creature die at 0 in this game? Since the PH was printed earlier perhaps it links more closely to this; however, when the DMG was printed it was the chance to "correct" something that Gygax wanted to include in the ADVANCED game (negative h.p.s). I don't think there is a single place in the DMG where Gygax says "sorry disregard this or that part of the PH as we corrected it in the DMG". The two were supposed to jive, and for the most part do. Considering the amount of jumping back and forth between rule books and inclusion of the UA spell, it just seems like Gygax wanted the rules on p82 to stand as is (as North suggests). I suppose it's another mystery that will never be satisfact. answered (even if Gygax did answer this question, he seems to mix his house rules with the ones layed out at the time, so there's no telling. Man if only Storm Crow were still around).