Post by foster1941 on Jan 19, 2005 17:30:29 GMT -5
I just posted this over on DF (and had posted it previously at the Grognard's Tavern as well). It's a combat example from the D&D FAQ in The Strategic Review vol. 1 no. 2 (Summer 1975) that contains the only mention (to my knowledge) of an 'official' unarmed combat procedure for OD&D.:
An interesting and simple system. Presumably the 2 dice for the orcs and the 4 dice for the Hero come from their respective hit dice/levels. I'm not sure how this would work for non-fighter characters (perhaps the intention is actually that they receive a number of dice equal to their hit dice from vol. I (which, coincidentally enough, is also 4 for a Hero) -- thus a Thaumaturgist (MU5) would use 3 dice to grapple (or throw off grapplers)?). There's also no mention of a provision for a pinned character breaking free -- perhaps they can't and once pinned remain pinned until the attacker lets go? Comments? Any of you actual OD&D-oldtimers (as opposed to OD&D-come-latelys like me ) ever used this system in play?
Considering that overwhelming opponents with sheer numbers like shown in this example (as well as the combat example in the AD&D PH, intriguingly enough -- think EGG was trying to tell us something?) is about the only way 'mook' monsters possibly stand a chance against high-level characters, I think it's important that the rules allow (and even encourage) such a maneuver, which has therefore been one of my biggest complaints about later D&D editions and pre-UA AD&D -- the latter's rules that were so unwieldy that nobody ever wanted to use them, and the former (Holmes, Moldvay, etc.) didn't include rules for grappling/overbearing at all until the Mentzer Companion Set, and those rules, like the pre-UA AD&D rules (but perhaps not quite as bad), were so complicated that they ended up discouraging, rather than encouraging, attempts to use them.
Combat Example:
10 ORCS surprise a lone Hero wandering lost in the dungeons, but the die check reveals they are 30’ distant at the time of surprise, so they use their iniative to close to melee distance. lnitiative is now checked. The Hero scores a 3, plus 1 for his high dexterity, so it is counted 4. The Orcs score 6, and even a minus 1 for their lack of dexterity (optional) still allows them first attack. As they outnumber their opponent so heavily it is likely that they will try to overpower him rather than kill, so each hit they score will be counted as attempts to grapple the Hero:
- Assumed armor of the Hero: Chainmail & Shield -- AC 4.
- Score required to hit AC 4 -- 15 (by monsters with 1 hit die).
- Only 5 Orcs can attack, as they haven’t had time to surround.
Assume the following dice scores for the Orcs attacks:
Orc #1 - 06; #2 - 10; #3 - 18; #4 - 20; #5 - 03.
Two of the Orcs have grappled the Hero, and if his score with 4 dice is less than their score with 2 dice he has been pinned helplessly. If it is a tie they are struggling, with the Hero still on his feet, but he will be unable to defend himself with his weapon. If the Hero scores higher than the Orcs use the positive difference to throw off his attackers, i.e. the Hero scores 15 and the Orcs scored but 8, so the Hero has tossed both aside, stunning them for 7 turns between them.
- Round 2: lniative goes to the Hero.
- Score required to hit Orcs -- 11 (4th level fighter vs. AC 6).
Assume the following dice score by the Hero. Note that he is allowed one attack for each of his combat levels as the ratio of one Orc vs. the Hero is 1:4, so this is treated as normal (non-fantastic) melee, as is any combat where the score of one side is a base 1 hit die or less.
Hero: 19; 01; 16; 09. Two out of four blows struck. There are 8 orcs which can be possibly hit. An 8-sided die is rolled to determine which have been struck. Assume a 3 and an 8 are rolled. Orcs #3 and #8 are diced for to determine their hit points, and they have 3 and 4 points respectively. Orc #3 takes 6 damage points and is killed. Orc #8 takes 1 damage point and is able to fight.
- All 7 surviving/non-stunned Orcs are now able to attack.
Continued attempts to overpower the Hero are assumed, and no less than 4 Orcs are able to attack the Hero from positions where his shield cannot be brought into play, so his AC is there considered 5, and those Orcs which attack from behind add +2 to their hit dice. In the case it is quite likely that the Orcs will capture the Hero.
10 ORCS surprise a lone Hero wandering lost in the dungeons, but the die check reveals they are 30’ distant at the time of surprise, so they use their iniative to close to melee distance. lnitiative is now checked. The Hero scores a 3, plus 1 for his high dexterity, so it is counted 4. The Orcs score 6, and even a minus 1 for their lack of dexterity (optional) still allows them first attack. As they outnumber their opponent so heavily it is likely that they will try to overpower him rather than kill, so each hit they score will be counted as attempts to grapple the Hero:
- Assumed armor of the Hero: Chainmail & Shield -- AC 4.
- Score required to hit AC 4 -- 15 (by monsters with 1 hit die).
- Only 5 Orcs can attack, as they haven’t had time to surround.
Assume the following dice scores for the Orcs attacks:
Orc #1 - 06; #2 - 10; #3 - 18; #4 - 20; #5 - 03.
Two of the Orcs have grappled the Hero, and if his score with 4 dice is less than their score with 2 dice he has been pinned helplessly. If it is a tie they are struggling, with the Hero still on his feet, but he will be unable to defend himself with his weapon. If the Hero scores higher than the Orcs use the positive difference to throw off his attackers, i.e. the Hero scores 15 and the Orcs scored but 8, so the Hero has tossed both aside, stunning them for 7 turns between them.
- Round 2: lniative goes to the Hero.
- Score required to hit Orcs -- 11 (4th level fighter vs. AC 6).
Assume the following dice score by the Hero. Note that he is allowed one attack for each of his combat levels as the ratio of one Orc vs. the Hero is 1:4, so this is treated as normal (non-fantastic) melee, as is any combat where the score of one side is a base 1 hit die or less.
Hero: 19; 01; 16; 09. Two out of four blows struck. There are 8 orcs which can be possibly hit. An 8-sided die is rolled to determine which have been struck. Assume a 3 and an 8 are rolled. Orcs #3 and #8 are diced for to determine their hit points, and they have 3 and 4 points respectively. Orc #3 takes 6 damage points and is killed. Orc #8 takes 1 damage point and is able to fight.
- All 7 surviving/non-stunned Orcs are now able to attack.
Continued attempts to overpower the Hero are assumed, and no less than 4 Orcs are able to attack the Hero from positions where his shield cannot be brought into play, so his AC is there considered 5, and those Orcs which attack from behind add +2 to their hit dice. In the case it is quite likely that the Orcs will capture the Hero.
An interesting and simple system. Presumably the 2 dice for the orcs and the 4 dice for the Hero come from their respective hit dice/levels. I'm not sure how this would work for non-fighter characters (perhaps the intention is actually that they receive a number of dice equal to their hit dice from vol. I (which, coincidentally enough, is also 4 for a Hero) -- thus a Thaumaturgist (MU5) would use 3 dice to grapple (or throw off grapplers)?). There's also no mention of a provision for a pinned character breaking free -- perhaps they can't and once pinned remain pinned until the attacker lets go? Comments? Any of you actual OD&D-oldtimers (as opposed to OD&D-come-latelys like me ) ever used this system in play?
Considering that overwhelming opponents with sheer numbers like shown in this example (as well as the combat example in the AD&D PH, intriguingly enough -- think EGG was trying to tell us something?) is about the only way 'mook' monsters possibly stand a chance against high-level characters, I think it's important that the rules allow (and even encourage) such a maneuver, which has therefore been one of my biggest complaints about later D&D editions and pre-UA AD&D -- the latter's rules that were so unwieldy that nobody ever wanted to use them, and the former (Holmes, Moldvay, etc.) didn't include rules for grappling/overbearing at all until the Mentzer Companion Set, and those rules, like the pre-UA AD&D rules (but perhaps not quite as bad), were so complicated that they ended up discouraging, rather than encouraging, attempts to use them.