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Post by PapersAndPaychecks on Apr 26, 2005 4:47:16 GMT -5
Imo Read Magic vies with Write for the title of "most seriously misunderstood M-U spell of all time".
How do you all use it?
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Post by northrundicandus on Apr 26, 2005 9:06:08 GMT -5
I require it to be used upon all unknown magics that a Magic-User might find: i.e. scrolls, spellbooks, and any magical inscriptions the caster might find. Once the spell is used, it is no longer necessary to use again for the scroll, book, or item that it was cast upon.
Does this differ from others' usage of the spell?
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Post by PapersAndPaychecks on Apr 26, 2005 9:15:44 GMT -5
Hm. I phrased my question imprecisely.
I've got my own take on this, but I'm trying to phrase the question in a non-leading way. It might help if I ask in terms of specific examples.
If I pick up a Scroll of Protection from Elementals (say), do I need Read Magic to tell what it is?
Can a thief read a magic-user scroll without Read Magic? Under what circumstances?
Could a cleric pick up a scroll of Cure Serious Wounds and know what it is without a magic-user's help?
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Post by northrundicandus on Apr 26, 2005 9:19:57 GMT -5
Hm. I phrased my question imprecisely. I've got my own take on this, but I'm trying to phrase the question in a non-leading way. It might help if I ask in terms of specific examples. If I pick up a Scroll of Protection from Elementals (say), do I need Read Magic to tell what it is? No. According to the DMG, any bloke can use it. Yes! At 10th level. It can backfire though. Yes.
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Post by PapersAndPaychecks on Apr 26, 2005 9:33:38 GMT -5
Okay, that seems straightforward, but here's the tricky bit.
If a thief can read a Magic-User scroll without Read Magic, can a Magic-User do the same thing?
And if so, then what does Read Magic actually do?
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Post by northrundicandus on Apr 26, 2005 9:56:49 GMT -5
Okay, that seems straightforward, but here's the tricky bit. If a thief can read a Magic-User scroll without Read Magic, can a Magic-User do the same thing? And if so, then what does Read Magic actually do?The AD&D Magic-User always sees magic as a 'personal' thing. Other MU's scribbling is gibberish to the caster until they cast Read Magic. Once this is done, the MU can understand the spell in the spellbook or scroll he has found. He can then use the scroll as a one-shot magic item, or transcribe the spell into his spellbook, as long as he makes his intelligence based roll to "know" the spell. This last process makes the spell 'his own'. Thieves are hacks. The eventually puzzle out how some of the magic is stored in a scroll. They really don't understand it like a magic-user does, so they unleash the magic and hope for the best. IMO, an MU's years of training actually prevents him from doing something this reckless. The MU wants to be sure what he's about to unleash. I've always seen clerical scrolls as prayers and supplications. Any other cleric can use them.
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Post by PapersAndPaychecks on Apr 26, 2005 10:27:47 GMT -5
Hm, that's an interpretation that makes sense and is consistent with the rules. Now I'm wondering.
The way I'd always played it is that Read Magic lets you identify the contents of a magic-user scroll. In other words, a thief could read the magic incantation, but then they'd set it off (whether it was Fireball or Polymorph Self). Likewise, a magic-user could read the contents of a scroll aloud without Read Magic, but the effect of the spell would be a surprise to them.
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Post by Lord Cias on Apr 26, 2005 11:07:39 GMT -5
I've always assumed that read magic was required for a magic-user to be able to both cast the spell and know what it was. And I've always assumed that a thief's ability to read magic scrolls basically functioned like the read magic spell, only with a chance of failure.
That said I've never been too happy with the way the read magic spell works, nor do I like the fact that thieves are able to "learn" to read magic while a magic-user cannot.
Perhaps requiring read magic simply to know what the spell does, but not being required to cast a spell from a magic-user scroll is a viable alternative (and perhaps even the way it was intended, although I still doubt it).
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Post by AxeMental on Apr 26, 2005 14:05:17 GMT -5
If I understand it correctly the thief does not gain the ability to read magic. Rather the thief is able to figure out (if he makes the role) any strange writing that he encounters given the time (or the jist of it). I think its the same with the spell, with proper announciation activates it. This does not mean he can read magic from that point on, just figure out how to activate magical scrolls. The MU spell read magic allows the PCto pick up any scroll or spell and figure it out. I think once they have read the spell once using the spell, its not needed again (as was described above). Ex. a thief finds a scroll of spider climb. He makes his RL and activates it (he only understands a little and wings it), while the MU casts the spell read magic and at this point could read anything in that writing (and in this case the spell). So, its not really the same thing, ones truely understanding the other very minimal.
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Post by Lord Cias on Apr 26, 2005 23:17:42 GMT -5
I still don't like that thieves can learn to cast spells off a scroll (regardless of how) and magic-users cannot.
It doesn't really matter how one explains that thieves are able to learn to read spells off of a scroll, there is no real reason why thieves are capable of this and magic-users (who spend every day for almost their whole lives studying magic and are exposed to it constantly) are not. So what if a thief eventually learns that a set of magical symbols has a certain pronounciation or meaning? Why doesn't a freak'n magic-user figure the same thing out the 1001st time goes over that same set of symbols?
Eh.
I've been thinking about giving magic-users the inate ability to read magic at 5% per level after 1st level. Read magic will still be an important spell for the early levels because this ability will have a very small chance of working and read magic always works. But by time thieves are able to read magic scrolls, magic-users will be able to do so as well without needing a spell. Obviously this means that at high levels the read magic spell would be usesless, but I don't know if it would really have that much of an impact or not.
Of course if read magic simply lets the magic-user know what is on the scroll without casting it but he can cast the spell even before casting read magic, and thieves have no way to figure out what is on a scroll even though they have the ability to cast it, then I suppose that would be ok.
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Post by Lord Cias on Apr 26, 2005 23:37:16 GMT -5
Ok, so going strictly by the spell description of read magic in the PHB, it is possible that the spell functions the way P&P suggests (i.e. that the spell allows the magic-user to understand what is written on the scroll, but is not required to "activate" the spell).
The following lines from the DMG may (or may not) shed a little more light on the subject (emphasis mine):
From this we see that a read magic spell is certainly needed to know what spell is written on a scroll. The second line could be taken either way. It specifically says that a read magic spell is not needed (again) to invoke the magic, but it seems to indicate that it is not needed only after the character knows what spell is on the scroll?
Then there is this line (again with my emphasis): Here it seems to indicated that a read magic spell is not needed to cast the spell, but only after the contents are known via read magic.
So it seems that when a magic-user finds a scroll, he is unable to use it until he casts read magic to determine what the spell is.
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Post by PapersAndPaychecks on Apr 27, 2005 2:52:32 GMT -5
Aye, Cias, this is why that interpretation struck me as the only version which is both consistent with the rules and satisfactory in terms of mechanics.
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Post by AxeMental on Apr 27, 2005 6:26:14 GMT -5
CIas, the answer to why Gygax did this I'm sure was to make thieves more interesting and to give them a boost to keep them at pace with other classes. For instance, now high level thieves can get past things that require magic (for instance a dispel magic scroll). Remember, its not a sure thing.
The logic of your statement is true enough. But, thieves are doing something a little different. For instance a thief can read an illusionist scroll as well as a MUs scroll, while the MU can't.
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Post by rogattny on Apr 27, 2005 9:28:33 GMT -5
CIas, the answer to why Gygax did this I'm sure was to make thieves more interesting and to give them a boost to keep them at pace with other classes. It also must be an homage to Cugel and his little misadventure after reading Iuncounu's book of spells. We all know how Gary likes his Vance. R.A.
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Post by Lord Cias on Apr 27, 2005 11:54:38 GMT -5
CIas, the answer to why Gygax did this I'm sure was to make thieves more interesting and to give them a boost to keep them at pace with other classes. For instance, now high level thieves can get past things that require magic (for instance a dispel magic scroll). Remember, its not a sure thing. It also must be an homage to Cugel and his little misadventure after reading Iuncounu's book of spells. We all know how Gary likes his Vance. True and true, but I still don't like it. I don't have a problem with theives being able to read magic scrolls, in fact I kinda like that (which is why I haven't removed that ability from my game). It is just that I don't like that thieves can do it when magic-users cannot. Oh well . . . I have thought about making two kinds of magical languages. The first type would be more like an actual language made up of runes and/or hieroglyphs. Magic-users would be able to read this language without needed of a read magic spell, and this is what thieves eventually learn how to read at level 10. Then there are illegible magic scripts which do require a read magic spell, even for a magic-user. The problem is deciding which type to use with each type of magical writing. For example, would the spells in a magic-user's spell book be the first or second type? What about spell scrolls? Magical inscriptions on magic items? Etc.
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