BTB Shield spell

[Mythmere]

I cast shield. I have an 18 dex and a ring that gives me an AC bonus of 1. Someone throws an axe, followed by an arrow, followed by a sword thrust.

What is my AC vs the three attacks? In other words, what (if any) modifiers stack with the base AC of a shield spell?

[foster1941]

The shield spell grants a flat AC that doesn't "stack" with anything else (rings, Dex, etc.).

[Gandalf Istari]

foster1941 said:

The shield spell grants a flat AC that doesn't "stack" with anything else (rings, Dex, etc.).

Unless there is something in the errata that I haven't read, or EGG has chimed in on this at some point in one of his various interviews, articles, or Q&A's, I'm not sure how you're arriving at this conclusion. The PHB spell description doesn't address this in any way, and the spell isn't even mentioned anywhere in the DMG as far as I can tell.

I'd have to say the matter at hand is open to far more interpretation than you've stated here. I've always allowed "stackable" bonuses (like magic, dex, situation) to stack with this spell, since it offers a base AC much as armor would (and given that armor allows for "stackable" bonuses), and have played with others who've allowed the same.

Is there somewhere you're getting this hard and fast rule from in relation to this spell?

[foster1941]

I've always played it that way, and it was clarified in the Sage Advice in Dragon sometime in the 2E era (so if you want to ignore the ruling on those grounds, I suppose you're free to). I don't know if there are any other references in modules or whatnot. Like I said I've always just instinctively done it the way I described so I never looked for references (until someone made an issue of it at DF a couple years ago and I dug out that Sage Advice reference).

[Gandalf Istari]

Now see, that simply points up a strength in the old school games IMO. Everything isn't laid out hard and fast, with alot of stuff like this left open to DM option. It ties back into Myth's mantra of "Let's not straight jacket the DM if we can help it" that he's mentioned previously, and which is such a strength of the early incarnations of the game.

For us, we always looked at the shield spell as working much as bracers of defense do. Bracers of defense don't work in conjunction with other armor, but they provide a base AC that can be modified by other magic bonuses (DMG. pg.139).

[AxeMental]

We have always played shield does not stack. In other words if a MU has an AC of 2 before casting shield, the shield spell offers no advantage (except to MM of course). I thought this was adressed someplace as well (as we played this way since the late 70s). This sounds like something StormCrow might have turned up. I think the point of this is whats the best BTB answer to Myths question. Making a house rule it stacks is fine, but know its a house rule.

[Gandalf Istari]

I'm not sure it can be called a house rule when neither the PHB nor the DMG specifically address this point. Neither of those books say that the shield spell cannot stack with other bonuses, and I have yet to see anything (other than Foster's 2nd edition reference that doesn't count as far as I'm concerned) from any other official source that states that shield either does or does not stack with other bonuses.

Its not a house rule to rule something differently than you do if it has been left open to interpretation due to a lack of specificity in the rulebooks.

[mistere29]

gandalfistari said:

I'm not sure it can be called a house rule when neither the PHB nor the DMG specifically address this point.

Actually that's exactly what a house rule is, something that isn't covered by the rules but needs to be addressed noneless. Think of poker, the game rules tell nothing of how you bet, it is limit, no limit, pot limit, how many times can the players raise in one hand, are all ins allowed.

One of my pet peeves with the DF crowd is the confuse house rules with variant rules (rules that replace parts of the game) optional rules (rules that where not meant to be used in all games) and reference rules (things that where never meant to be taken literally, like treasure tables).

[Gandalf Istari]

mistere29 said:

gandalfistari said:

I'm not sure it can be called a house rule when neither the PHB nor the DMG specifically address this point.

Actually that's exactly what a house rule is, something that isn't covered by the rules but needs to be addressed noneless. Think of poker, the game rules tell nothing of how you bet, it is limit, no limit, pot limit, how many times can the players raise in one hand, are all ins allowed.

One of my pet peeves with the DF crowd is the confuse house rules with variant rules (rules that replace parts of the game) optional rules (rules that where not meant to be used in all games) and reference rules (things that where never meant to be taken literally, like treasure tables).

Well we certainly define house rules differently then. I view house rules precisely as variants or optional rules that are not warranted on a by the book interpretation of the rules.

Something like deciding whether other magical bonuses can stack with the shield spell is simply an interpretation that a DM makes, given that there is nothing explicit in the text in the first place to clarify the issue. Different interpretations on something that is not explicitly clarified in the text are equally by the book as far as I'm concerned. Thus, Foster's view that the shield spell does not stack with other bonuses is as by the book as my view that it does, because neither is expressly prescribed or prohibited by the official rules given in the books. Indeed, that falls within the grand tradition of Gygaxian AD&D, that there are things left up to the purview of the DM that he may interpret or rule upon as he pleases, and still remain within the scope of the RAW.

[Mythmere]

We always played it Gandalf's way. I was actually pretty surprised to hear that the other interpretation is even out there. I assumed that everyone used dex bonuses, and only really expected to hear variations about things like rings of protection...

[mistere29]

gandalfistari said:

mistere29 said:

Thus, Foster's view that the shield spell does not stack with other bonuses is as by the book as my view that it does, because neither is expressly prescribed or prohibited by the official rules given in the books..

The rule changes depending on who/where you play, even though you are playing the same game, so its a house rule. Just like house rules when you play poker.

[northrundicandus]

All the groups I've played in have ruled the Shield spell as Foster has above.

Makes calculations easy at least. :-)

[AxeMental]

I'm sure this is in writing someplace.