Why bother developing new RPG fantasy?

[AxeMental]

This is a response to something Gene said about there not being need for a new Fantasy RPG since we already own the best that could be developed, AD&D.
It's apparent that there is a market for 3E (made up of the super dweebs who buy) but what about another RPG fanstasy game for us. Something fresh. Is there a need for that.

If we spent 100s of hours laboring over a new game system and proper descriptive text would it be different enough from AD&D to make it worth the effort.

I used to think there was no need, now I'm not so sure. Of course the 3E product has super saturated the young adult market, still a new feel (something different from AD&D or 3E would be cool).

[BonesMcCoy]

Absolutely there is a need. Look at all the people buying up C&C. And that's a POS. Just imagine how much more successful it would be if it was actually good. Regular RPG gamers like dungeon crawling. They like killing creatures and taking their stuff. Accumulating gold and magic items is fun. Getting mucho XP and gaining levels is fun. A simple class and level game focused on dungeon crawling is what D&D is all about. 3E doesn't do it any more, so what game will? For some it's C&C, for us it's OOP AD&D. But if there were another choice I believe it would sell well and be successful. Just look to HackMaster as an example.

[AxeMental]

OK so how make it different enough from AD&D that it's not too close of a copy. The game can't only be different in rules it needs a unique feel. Something new.

What about new classes? Something more Tolkien, or more mythical, perhaps more Legend in look. You could still have the same basic premise (dungeon crawl).

[BonesMcCoy]

Since AD&D is OOP and 3E is wholly different, I don't think a new FRPG needs to be unique to be successful. Once again, look at C&C and HM. They rehash AD&D very closely yet both are enjoying success in the marketplace. Classic fantasy is timeless. Like LotR, it never goes out of style. Giving a new FRPG a unique spin is fine but don't make it too weird or it'll be a niche product like Talislanta.

I think sticking to the basics and supporting the classic fantasy images would be the way to go. With a bit of thought the standard races and classes could be presented in a refreshing way by changing some of their abilities whilst still supporting the much ballyhooed 'classic fantasy archetype'.

[AxeMental]

Bones: "Since AD&D is OOP and 3E is wholly different, I don't think a new FRPG needs to be unique to be successful. Once again, look at C&C and HM. They rehash AD&D very closely yet both are enjoying success in the marketplace. Classic fantasy is timeless. "

Yeah, but what about us, would we play something that was very similar to AD&D. Perhaps something the same but slightly different. D&D and AD&D had that kind of relationship, D&D more Tolkien, AD&D a little more gritty (esp. as presented in the Gord novels).

I wonder how much mula it would cost to print up a few hundred books if you had presales? What page number would you want to go for, and how many color illustrations (thus color pages).

And would you talor your product's design to whats hip (like C&C did) or produce something new (with anatomical proportions of elves dwarves etc. correct of course, and no stupid stiff extreme poses).

I wonder if C&C is still planning on releasing LA; if so that might fill the niche (though I expect a continuation of "typical" hip artwork and design and sloppy editing).

[Gandalf Istari]

I tend to agree with Bones, that whats needed is a return to what worked before. Whats needed is a return to quality adventure gaming, as well as a return to medieval fantasy. When I refer to quality and medieval fantasy, what I'm really referring to is solid game design and publishing standards (and art work, but thats more subjective), as well as flavor. What it boils down to is getting back to what was GOOD. We need someone like EGG (by that I don't necessarily mean EGG himself, just someone like him) to come on the scene and make a game that is a return to the principles and elements of what made AD&D great. A game made by gamers for gamers, not a game made by market strategists.

Compare the quality and flavor of the books that have been pumped out since TSR gave EGG the boot, from 2nd edition to TETSNBN, and you'll see what I mean. The publishing standards for gaming materials stink these days, and have for awhile(of course TSR and WotC are not the only guilty parties to this). Not only is the physical quality and presentation of the books poor, but the rules are crap and the content is drivel. Fluff and "crunchy stuff", little in the way of solid game design. Gaming materials are viewed by many nowadays IMO as disposable. Many people don't care about poor editing or layout, poor book binding, missing or incorrect information, etc., because D&D is just a passing fling for them, like Monopoly or Chutes and Ladders. Its not viewed as a hobby IMO by alot of the new players out there, its viewed as a glorified board game. It could be argued I suppose depending on who you talk to that D&D has never been nothing more than a glorified board game (and I've used this description myself with older people who are stuck in the 80's and think D&D is evil incarnate, just to get them to understand that its just a game). Consider how fast character level up in TETSNBN, how fast they gain powers, how powerful those powers are, how many bells and whistles there are. These things appeal to the computer gaming generation, who burn through computer games in days (or sometimes hours). D&D for this new generation will be a passing fad rather than an incredible hobby that can be played for a life time.

Then take a look at the flavor of most stuff these days. Kim Mohan explicitly stated in a public interview that the purpose of TETSNBN was to break away from the medieval flavor that was the tradition and glory of the past incarnations of AD&D. As much as 2e had its flaws, it was at least in the beginning and in the conception of its core books, supposed to be medieval fantasy, and at least 2e gave the appearance of following in EGG's footsteps even though it didn't live up to the reputation that the game had when EGG was at the helm. Certainly 2e was the bridge between traditional Gygaxian fantasy RPGing and the monster that is the TETSNBN, with settings like Planescape as well as the splat books laying the ground work for 3e, but in the beginning 2e at least gave lip service to the game's past. TETSNBN was a purposefull break with that past. WotC wanted D&D to get out from under the shadow of EGG as well as the old schoolers who wanted the game to get back to what made it great in the first place. There's a reason that TETSNBN has spikey armor, anime looking characters, body piercing, etc., and its not just to appeal to the current young fanbase. Its part of WotC's strategy to take D&D into a new phase in which many people who will end up playing the game will not harken back to the days of yesteryore, recalling the glory that was Gygaxian AD&D and TSR.

Now, bring a new game on the market that does all the right things that AD&D did, and I think we'd see a change in the market in the long run. Right now may not be the best time, as WotC has its claws sunk deep in the gaming industry with TETSNBN and d20, but when they decide for marketing reasons and strategies to bring out 4th edition, WotC D&D will flop about like a fish out of water, and then would be the time for a new game that recaptured the quality and flavor of AD&D to strike, while the iron was hot. Current edition players will balk at buying new books, and will be using the same arguments that 1e players were using when 2e came out, namely that their edition isn't broken and they don't want to shell out more cash. Then would be the time for a new game IMO, something new and semi-rules lite.

Keep it simple. Core rules books (Players book, Game master book, Monster books), well designed and thought out old school dungeons, and that about it. No splat books, no campaign settings with their endless supplements, no frills or thrills. Make the new game as close to flawless as possible in terms of publishing and editing standards, keep the material needed for the game small, get back to medieval fantasy rather than the power rangers meets teenage ninja turtles thats around now, make some d**n good modules to introduce people to playing the game, and I think the worm could turn if the timing was right.

JMO of course.

[CJL]

A new games must to avoid the dumbing down that's in all the books printed after 1985. Many people will not read and learn a new system when it crafted for 3rd graders like current edition. The new edition players handbook - puts me right to sleep. Can't have that kind of writing in a new game. C&C is just as loopy, in it's own way. Write the books, so it is clearly for high fantasy, not comic book drivel and it will sell.