Arduin?

[foster1941]

Dave Hargrave's Arduin series is both legendary and infamous among ultra-oldschool D&Ders. I've never owned these books but have always been curious about them, at least from an historical standpoint (since from what I understand trying to actually use them in a D&D campaign would be downright disastrous). I recently discovered that replica editions of the original books are in-print and for sale here. So my questions to those who you who are familiar with these books are: 1) are these books worth getting from an historical standpoint to see the kinds of things people were doing with pre-A D&D, and perhaps even to steal an idea or two from, or shouldn't I bother? and 2) $45 for 3 digest-sized books seems like an awful lot, especially since they're reprints and not actual 'collectible' editions -- is it too much? would I have a chance to get copies on ebay or wherever for less without a ton of time and effort?

[supernaught]

Greetings and Salutations!

Arduin started as an expansion for OD&D but gradually evolved into its own system. There are a lot of things that can be borrowed from Arduin and used in OD&D or AD&D with little effort. There is a wide variety of races, some quite unconventional like Phraints; emotionless insect warriors descended from a crashed interstellar spaceship( think MR. Spock ), Saurigs; lizard warriors bred for combat with a taste for raw flesh, Deodanths; refugees from a dying world with an intense hatred for elves and Kobbits; scrappy halfling/kobold hybrids with a talent for the sling. There is a large variety of spells such as Morgorns Spell of the Red Death which turns a target inside out, Harwyn's Bone Shaker that causes victims to have intense muscle spasms and shake uncontrollably and Haraag's Hellfire Spell which burns a victim from the inside out by feeding on the life force of the target:)

Arduin offers a huge array of different character classes like Witch Hunters; relentless hunters of evil, Rune Weavers; wizards with a long lost magic art, Alchemists, Bandits, Technos; technological minded inventor/adventurers that deny that magic exists and lots more. The selection of monsters is vast. Personal favorites include Vroats; alligator/giant frog crossbreeds, Doomguard; animated suits of armor that are relentless killing machines and the Grey Horror; a school bus sized killer scorpion.

Arduin was the first to introduce spell points and critical hits; which are very deadly indeed. Add to all this interesting combat options and lots of magic items and you have lots to steal, I mean borrow:) One cool thing is since Arduin was originally meant to be a OD&D supplement everything is in this format including monster HD and AC starting at 9. There are also six more books in the series that can be plundered for goodies and the new Legendary Lands of Khass Arduin WorldBook is entirely system neutral so you can plug a straight OD&D campaign right into it or any system you like.

Hope this helps,

Roy

[rogattny]

To have? Definitely worth it for the historical curiousity alone.

To use? Don't know. In a lot of ways the Grimoires epitomize the gonzo "anything goes" 70's style game, a flavor that TSR only approached in Eldritch Wizardry. I think it would be worth it for a couple sessions just to see how far people could go with the game. But for a long term campaign? Don't know. It'll come with all the incumbant problems of the most bloated versions of the game.

To buy? 15$ a pop isn't too far off of what you'd pay to get them on ebay. I got Grimoire 3 for $8 before shipping, but haven't been able to get the other two for a price that good. If you consider they're about the same size, scope, and amount of content as you'd get for Greyhawk, Blackmoor and the other Supps, I think $15 is reasonable.

R.A.

[supernaught]

Look at Arduin as a book of options and you can't go wrong. Some races would not work in a traditional OD&D campaign but the variety of monsters and treasures alone is worth the price. The alternate paladin rules might be of interest to D&D enthusiasts and the ideas presented for the barbarian are interesting. So just take what you like and ignore the rest ;D

[AxeMental]

45$ for reprints, and not even a limited run? Thats insane. This stuff isn't really collectable unless its original (so they should either be making it collectable by numbering them or they should sell them for something realistic). It's amazing there getting that really.

[foster1941]

At the session yesterday the DM (who's been playing since the 70s and has a collection of ancient materials he bought at the time) brought along some old-time stuff for nostalgia's sake -- his OD&D set (OCE printing, including supplements I-IV) and his Arduin set (boxed set with the first 3 volumes). Wheggi (who'd never seen this before either) and I spent quite a while (maybe 45 minutes while waiting for the rest of the players to arrive and set up) poring over these books marveling at their old-schooliness -- each of the three books is about 100pp long (much thicker than the TSR booklets) with tiny print and reams and reams of tables. Plus they're full of illustrations, many of which are surprisingly good (better than what TSR had at the time) -- there's even some pre-TSR Erol Otus artwork in there!

The rules (or at least what I saw of them) are completely gonzo and ridiculous -- way beyond the pale of anything TSR ever sanctioned, and trying to use these rules in a "standard" D&D campaign would be a recipe for instant derailment -- but they're also vibrant and creative as hell. Dave Hargrave let his imagination run wild all over the page -- there are tons of new spells, new items, new monsters, new classes & races, new rules, all clearly inspired by D&D but refusing to accept the limitations in scope, power, or even taste, of that game. This is what I imagine a lot of D&D campaigns were like back in the pre-A D&D days before Gygax laid down the law and told everybody how the game should be played. And while I respect Gygax's prerogative as originator of the game to say "no, that's not what I meant," looking at something like this I can;'t help feeling a little wistful for what was lost when people began conforming to the "Gygaxian" standard of AD&D and every campaign began to look pretty much like every other campaign, that a lot of vibrancy and creativity was drained from the hobby (or at least from D&D -- in the 80s and 90s all the 'gonzo' people would create their own games/systems instead of just playing 'modified' D&D).

Anyway, after having a chance to peruse them I still really want these books for my collection, as an example of 'how far' people were willing to go with D&D back in the heady days of the 70s. I've got a lead on a pdf of Book 1, which should tide me over, but eventually I'm going to want a hardcopy (and volumes 2-3). I'll just have to find something cheaper than those reprints...

[Jerry Mapes]

After reading thru the first book, i see a lot of things one could pull into a game. But i see a lot of stuff that would make you want to pull out all your hair. It is very typical of pre-AD&D material that was floating between groups and other small independent publishers.

I guess alot of it depends on the system you are running with. Sure, much could be brought into any system with modifications... but OD&D or even TM's B/E-D&D rules would bend the best to fit IMO. AD&D you would have to be more careful. But that is the way i feel about most "compatable" or "universal" material being ported into AD&D.

I really want to track down the other two books from the boxset to give them a good once over. But at $45? I can wait.

Edit- Changed FM (Mentzer) to TM (Moldvay) its barely afternoon and its been a long day. But i suppose either could apply.

[godentag]

I can;'t help feeling a little wistful for what was lost when people began conforming to the "Gygaxian" standard of AD&D and every campaign began to look pretty much like every other campaign, that a lot of vibrancy and creativity was drained from the hobby (or at least from D&D -- in the 80s and 90s all the 'gonzo' people would create their own games/systems instead of just playing 'modified' D&D).

Hey there Foster...wanna play some Eberron?

Of course, in reality I don't own any of Eberron, 3e, or Arduin, so it's probably not fair for me to make such a bald comparison...but from what I've read online I think it could be said that the OGL has re-opened the door for gonzo to come back with camilla the chicken and the rest of the muppets as well!

[foster1941]

Not that I've actually read or played any of it, but at least in theory I don't have anything against Eberron* -- at least it seems to be trying to do something fresh and different. What I really can't stand is the Forgotten Realms and post-1986 Greyhawk endless recycling of the same elements way beyond the point of cliche.

*my problem with Eberron, and with 3E/d20 as a whole, is that it seeks to replace, not merely supplement or provide an alternative to, the game and style that I prefer. It'd be like if TSR had published the Arduin Grimoires and declared "this is what D&D is now; learn to love it suckers!" I don't have any problem with gonzo munchkin uberpowered stuff existing as an option for those who want it (just like I had no objection to the existence of games like Rifts or Shadowrun back in the 80s/90s, even though I didn't play them), I just don't like it being the only option...

[godentag]

Heh heh...just yankin' your chain, Foster.

It's interesting to me that EGG must have seen stuff like Arduin as a competitor of, thus an alternative to, OD&D's own supplements. I'd love to see that Arduin stuff, though...I mean, some of the stuff in Blackmoor and Eldritch Wizardry seems so gonzo to me, and those are stamped OFFICIAL.

[foster1941]

The feel of Arduin seems to be Blackmoor + Eldritch Wizardry + a whole whole lot of crack and/or methamphetamine (M.A.R. Barker's own 'gonzo' adaptation of vanilla D&D (Empire of the Petal Throne -- which seems amazing in retrospect that it was actually published by TSR!) also seems to have served as a launching pad -- especially its emphasis on sf-technology and really weird completely non-Tolkeinesque monsters/aliens). Seriously, not to speak ill of the late Mr. Hargrave but the feel I got from looking at the sheer volume of microscopic text and table after table after table, the entries on each one more outlandish than the one before was definitely "I wrote this entire thing in a single sitting as part of a massive 100-hour tweak-frenzy with no sleep whatsoever!" Most of us (especially those of us who grew up used to AD&D) see things like the hit location charts in Blackmoor and the initiative and psionics rules in EW and all that crazy Sh*t in EPT and think "whoa, time for a step back there." Dave Hargrave seems to have seen those same rules and thought "nice start! I see where they're going with this and I think I can take it to the next level! AAARGH!"

[rogattny]

I like Foster's take on it. Actually, it's very much like one music critic's take on Husker Du's Zen Arcade. It sounds like they went into the recording studio, pressed record, started playing for two hours, and then made it into and album. Ingenious, frantic, mind-numbing, inspired, and exhausting all at the same time.

And yes, it does sound a lot like the 3e'ers talking about their half-vampire dragon turtle ninja/paladins. I've said myself that as much Hargrave was "of" his time, he was also 25 years ahead of his time.

And yet, there is a different feel to it somehow. It's not as polished and systematized. Arduin seems to be fulfilling one guy's (bizarre, twisted, and odd) vision, while 3e is trying to fulfill everyone's vision at once. 3e's message is "no restrictions", while Arduin's message was, "check this wierd Sh*t out!!!" 3e is a tool box, Arduin is an acid trip (whether good or bad is for you to decide).

R.A.

[supernaught]

Arduin is full of unique ideas and elements for those not familiar with its history. If one takes a look at Jandar of Callisto or the Gor novels, one can see how Phraints came into being. The unusual fantasy elements existing in Arduin do not dominate the setting but help to add a uniqueness to a novel world. Arduin is Sword And Sorcery at its best but understanding Hargrave's setting requires insight much as GG reveals his real Greyhawk that is quite different from the published setting. I suggest visiting adventurersgates.com to get a feel for Arduin from one of Hargrave's main players. Check out the forum section: The golden Age of Arduin to get a better picture of how Arduin meshed with the game mechanics from the 3 Grimories.