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Post by godentag on Jul 14, 2005 14:15:30 GMT -5
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Post by grodog on Jul 15, 2005 23:57:02 GMT -5
Thanks for the link, I've been wondering recently wha Lew was up to!
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Post by AxeMental on Jul 16, 2005 9:22:04 GMT -5
Thanks for the link Grodog that explains alot. I didn't realize how pathetic the world of writing for 3E material was. So the industry pays 2 cents a word (one time) giving the authors insentive to write quantity rather then quality. Figures. Lucky for WOTC there are a glut of "fantasy writers" and a glut of munchkins to buy it. Still, I suppose this trend can't go on forever.
BTW I wonder if this has anything to do with the huge size of the CZ project? I mean, what ever happened to 50 page modules? I'd rather buy 30 C&C Gygax modules in 3 years then 3 huge books in the same time. WTH ?
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Post by northrundicandus on Jul 16, 2005 12:23:26 GMT -5
BTW I wonder if this has anything to do with the huge size of the CZ project? I mean, what ever happened to 50 page modules? I'd rather buy 30 C&C Gygax modules in 3 years then 3 huge books in the same time. WTH ? 50 page modules?!?? T1 is only 16 pages, and several of those are not even text! ;D |
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Post by AxeMental on Jul 16, 2005 13:06:39 GMT -5
Yeah, 50 is too many (B2 is 28 anyway, and I don't have my pile of modules near by but I assume there about the same). I wonder how big Castle Greyhawk would have been if published back in the early 80s? Even if done in a series (say 3 parts or something) combined it couldn't have been more then 100 pages.
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Post by foster1941 on Jul 16, 2005 17:43:12 GMT -5
Castle Greyhawk is several orders of magnitude larger than any other dungeon published in the old days -- I believe the final count was something over 40 levels, and several of those levels themselves were massive-sized (the map of the first level measured at least 17"x22"). Even at only 5-6pp per level, that would still put the page count ~250pp, probably more -- "Dungeonland" was one 'level' and filled 2 32pp modules (though admittedly there was some filler there), likewise the Isle of the Ape was a single 'level' that filled a 48pp module (again with some filler), so perhaps the average should be more like 12-15pp per level, taking the total page count into the 600pp range for the entire Castle (no wonder they never got it done!).
Which isn't meant to contradict your original thesis -- that the page-counts being given for the Castle Zagyg dungeons (6 volumes @ 150-180pp each) look inflated. They aren't doing all 40+ levels, but only 20 or so 'best of' levels, which means presumably only 3-4 levels per volume, which means they're planning on 40-50pp per level, which seems improbably high. One can therefore only assume there's going to be a lot of unnecessary filler in all those extra pages...
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Post by kellri on Jul 16, 2005 21:00:04 GMT -5
Anybody had a look at the "World's Biggest Dungeon"? I've seen somebody is recording their play sessions on MP3...but it's 3E. Or Wraith Overlord from Judges Guild- the sewers of the City State, also pretty big.
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Post by AxeMental on Jul 16, 2005 21:19:30 GMT -5
I had no idea Castle Greyhawk was that big! Well, then I can see that it would need to be huge. Gygax is a GREAT writer (as we all know) so hopefully his filler will be very enjoyable (given the subject matter). I hope the trolls are paying him royalties as well as 5 cents a word at least.
I still don't see why he didn't just start pumping out these CZ dungeon levels on his own, his name and reputation would have been plenty. I think LA may have sucked him dry.
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Post by northrundicandus on Jul 16, 2005 21:59:46 GMT -5
Anybody had a look at the "World's Biggest Dungeon"? I've seen somebody is recording their play sessions on MP3...but it's 3E. Or Wraith Overlord from Judges Guild- the sewers of the City State, also pretty big. Big square bland maps. I was making maps at the age of 13 that were a h ell of a lot more creative than that "World's Largest" crap with the DMG's Random Dungeon Tables. You can do a search online and find electronic copies of the WLD's levels - legal too, as the publisher released them online. It's all boring rectangles galore. I suspect 3.x's obsession with 5' squares is the reason. That's why I stick with the DMG's recommendation of 3 squares per 10' for miniatures. ;D Hmm. Is it World's Largest or World's Biggest? Ah well - it doesn't really matter. Sh it and dookie are both the same thing. |
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Post by foster1941 on Jul 17, 2005 0:28:08 GMT -5
I took a look through the World's Largest Dungeon when it was first released, and wasn't impressed -- certainly not enough to even consider dropping $100 (or whatever they were asking for it). It's all one level, so all movement is horizontal, not vertical. Each section (and there are 16, I believe) is mostly self-contained, with usually only one or two long hallways leading off the edge of the map to the next map-section. Each section is done by a different author (though some authors did multiple sections) and is keyed to a different level of characters. This leads me to believe that each section is essentially self-contained and that the party is expected to 'finish' each section before moving on to the next one -- I highly suspect that each section has its own self-contained 'plots' and probably a 'Big Bad Evil Guy' to be defeated. In other words, it's NOT really a giant dungeon in the sense of Castle Greyhawk or Undermountain (which is nothing but a CG pastiche, don't be fooled!), but rather is just 16 'modules' laid end to end (and, presumably tied together with some overarching themes and metaplots). Furthermore, my understanding is that there's only one entrance to the dungeon (in section 1), and that the party is expected to enter the dungeon at level 1 and stay inside until they've cleared out the entire thing and leave as level 20 characters. Once again, this linear plot-driven structure is completely contrary to what a megadungeon should be all about. There are probably some clever encounters inside, and some bits that could be extracted and used in your own dungeon, but I doubt there are anywhere near enough to justify the price they're asking. This thing was a gimmick, pure and simple, and it's a little sad how many people seemingly fell for it (especially since they'll almost certainly be soured by it and not want to be 'taken in again' by Castle Zagyg...).
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Post by grodog on Jul 17, 2005 4:07:26 GMT -5
Thanks for the link Grodog that explains alot. I didn't realize how pathetic the world of writing for 3E material was. So the industry pays 2 cents a word (one time) giving the authors insentive to write quantity rather then quality. Figures. It's actually much, much worse: if you take the average TSR freelancer wage of 2-4 cents per word in 1980, then apply the Department of Labor's cost of living increase index to it, contemporary rpg writers should, by my accounting, earn at least 70 cents per word just to have kept up with inflation. Many freelancers in 1980 were also keeping the rights to their works, as Lew mentions.... I'll take Castle Greyh... [cough] Zagyg in any form that I can get it. |
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Post by grodog on Jul 17, 2005 4:10:33 GMT -5
Which isn't meant to contradict your original thesis -- that the page-counts being given for the Castle Zagyg dungeons (6 volumes @ 150-180pp each) look inflated. They aren't doing all 40+ levels, but only 20 or so 'best of' levels, which means presumably only 3-4 levels per volume, which means they're planning on 40-50pp per level, which seems improbably high. One can therefore only assume there's going to be a lot of unnecessary filler in all those extra pages... TLG isn't exactly known for it's narrow margins and small type size  |
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