The Bard

[AxeMental]

I'm thinking of making the bard a 1st level PC option that co-exists with the official bard. I was thinking of still following the class templates but giving them some basic "powers" at first until they "get there" (at which point its run by the book). The reason being is that no one, not even once, has ever been a bard in a game I sat for. Not once! Perhaps the player needs to be developing in that direction the entire time, not just all the sudden, "I think I'll leave the city and take up the lute". Why not give them some almost useless abilities that make them feel well.......bardish at 1st. Any ideas?

I realize its in 3E has this, and that just makes me want to jump off a bridge, but still, I wanted to do this back in the late 70s, just not gay.

So, if you have your house rules, let'um fly.

[PapersAndPaychecks]

P&P house rule: anyone who suggests wanting to play a bard must dress up in pink spandex, put on makeup and prance around the room three times, singing "I'm a bard, fol-de-rol, I'm a tard, fol-de-rol" before I tell them whether they're allowed to play one.

Seriously, don't do this. If there's one thing that you don't need in a dungeon, it's an effing musician. I mean, what's the bard going to do, spout poetry at the monsters? Stun them into insensibility with bad Morris-dancing?

[dzubak]

Axe, why not just start them off using the bard level of advancement table (though perhaps they will rise too quickly) and make them attack as a fighters equal to 1/2 of their bard level and allow them to achieve thief abilities at 1/2 their of their bard level.

Though any player that wants to play the bard this way will still have to perform PnP "dance of the bard".

[northrundicandus]

Where's Bones? We need the Fruitmeter.

;D

[BonesMcCoy]

If you really want to use a bard I would suggest going with the Best of Dragon III version. He gets druid and illusionist spells, can charm with his music, do legend lore, D6 HD, attacks as a Fighter and starts at level 1. It's the best version of a bard I've seen.

Of course, what is the point of a bard in a dungeon? Who knows! Even old EGG was going to include a Jester in his 2e and he did make Gellor seem pretty d@mn cool in the Gord books. So maybe it is possible to have a cool, non-gay bard. I've never had one. Or seen one. But maybe it's possible.

PS - If you want to use just the PHB I think it's also possible. Use Bard table I on p117 for his XP, spells per day and so on. Give him D6 HD to 10 max, 2hp/lvl after. Attacks as a druid. Saves as a druid. Bonus spells from Wisdom. They get all the usual bard special abilities from p118 and use weapons and armor according to Bard Table III on p118. Personally, I wouldn't give them any thief abilities as I feel they get enough stuff without it.

I would also lower the required ability scores. If a 12 wisdom is good enough for a druid then it should be good enough for a bard. Keep the 15 minimum for charisma and the 12 for intelligence. Forget about the str, dex and con requirements. All IMO only, of course.

[dzubak]

If you really want to use a bard I would suggest going with the Best of Dragon III version. He gets druid and illusionist spells, can charm with his music, do legend lore, D6 HD, attacks as a Fighter and starts at level 1. It's the best version of a bard I've seen.

Yeah, I have this version as well. I do not have any experience with it so I did not want to recommend it.

PS - If you want to use just the PHB I think it's also possible. Use Bard table I on p117 for his XP, spells per day and so on. Give him D6 HD to 10 max, 2hp/lvl after. Attacks as a druid. Saves as a druid. Bonus spells from Wisdom. They get all the usual bard special abilities from p118 and use weapons and armor according to Bard Table III on p118. Personally, I wouldn't give them any thief abilities as I feel they get enough stuff without it.

I would also lower the required ability scores. If a 12 wisdom is good enough for a druid then it should be good enough for a bard. Keep the 15 minimum for charisma and the 12 for intelligence. Forget about the str, dex and con requirements. All IMO only, of course.

I like your idea, Bones. Better thought out then mine.

[foster1941]

I don't think it's possible to create a non-gay bard that starts at 1st level. The only thing that (arguably) makes BtB bards non-gay is the very act of going through the fighter and thief levels -- they've earned the right to wear puffy shirts and tights and strum their lutes at the monsters because underneath that they're pretty much by definition super-badasses (every bard has huge stats and at least 5th level as both a fighter and a thief!). Bards in AD&D are less a generic character archetype (the "Cha-based guy") and more like a secret society of badasses who use the fruity stuff as cover -- ignorant people see a ponce strumming a lute and assume he's a pushover, but in reality he's like a freakin' badass ninja -- experience point for experience point mid-to-high-level bards have more hp than even fighters! (really, do the math, they do).

So don't judge the AD&D bard by its gay surface appearance, look instead at all its actual abilities and realize that these guys are, essentially, elite undercover secret agents working for the druids (who are, remember, organized in at least a continent-wide and, if you use UA, planet-wide, secret hierarchy).

This and only this is how the AD&D bard can be seen as non-gay. If you try to strip away that badass-secret-agent-of-the-druids aspect and keep all the fruity stuff not as "cover" but as the core focus of the class then of course it's going to come off as lame and gay and inappropriate to the adventuring environment. I mean, come on, a guy who sings and recites poetry at monsters and has no other useful skills?!

[BonesMcCoy]

Thanks Mr. Dzubak!

Did you get that name from one of your D&D characters?

[Lord Cias]

Personally I like bards and don't consider them gay. Of course I prefer the Nordic skald warrior-poet type over the puffy shirt & tights type.

As far as making a stand-alone bard class, it could be done a number of ways.

The bard class that I came up with has d8 HD up to level 10, uses the cleric attack matrix, the thief save table, and they gain a few thief abilities. I replaced their druid spells and powers with a special bard spell list. Other than that and alterations to the x.p. progression, they are basically the same as presented in the PHB.

Another way is to make the bard class a type of human multi-class. The character can start as a fighter/bard, thief/bard, or fighter/thief/bard with level limits in the fighter and thief class. Optionally one could strip the bard class of its druidic powers and allow druid/bard, magic-user/bard, or illusionist/bard combos.

The PHB bard is basically a mix of three separate types. First is the "true" druidic bard as evidenced by their druid powers. Second is the Nordic skald which is why they must start out as fighters. And the third is the wandering minstrel, from which comes the thief class and their charm, legend lore, and language abilities. Perhaps creating a separate class for each of those three types would make them seem less convoluted. Of course the wandering minstrels will still be regarded as gay . . .

[dzubak]

Personally I like bards and don't consider them gay. Of course I prefer the Nordic skald warrior-poet type over the puffy shirt & tights type.

Which I believe is the feel that Gygax was looking to replicate as well Cias. A combination of the Celtic and Nordic bard. Edit: Just realized you mentioned this in your post.

It was 2ndEd that gave them the pansy puffy shirt & tights image.

The bard class that I came up with has d8 HD up to level 10, uses the cleric attack matrix, the thief save table, and they gain a few thief abilities. I replaced their druid spells and powers with a special bard spell list. Other than that and alterations to the x.p. progression, they are basically the same as presented in the PHB.

Well let's see it my man! Come on Cias give us a preview. I'd love to see an alternative.

Another way is to make the bard class a type of human multi-class. The character can start as a fighter/bard, thief/bard, or fighter/thief/bard with level limits in the fighter and thief class. Optionally one could strip the bard class of its druidic powers and allow druid/bard, magic-user/bard, or illusionist/bard combos.

Hmmmm, not quite sure my intellect is capable of handling this. Where does this bard class come from? Is it working off the idea that Bones & I were hitting upon (i.e. using the Bard progession only)?

Thanks Cias.

-D

OT: Yes Bones it was the name of my brother's Dwarf in a campaign of mine. I got tired of trying to register on Internet Forums and constantly being told "that name is already registerd how about Bradq0239rua0949n3erj?" So I went with something that I thought would be unique.

[Lord Cias]

dzubak said:

Well let's see it my man! Come on Cias give us a preview. I'd love to see an alternative.

Most of this was originally posted here:
www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4178

Ability Requirements: strength 12, intelligence 13, wisdom 10, dexterity 15, constitution 10, charisma 15 (optionally intelligence and wisdom requirements can be switched for those who wish to play a druidic bard, see below*)
Alignment: any neutral
Races Allowed: human and half-elf
Hit Dice: eight-sided through level 10, +2 h.p. per level thereafter
Combat Table: cleric/druid/monk
Saving Throw Table: thief
Weapon Proficiencies: 3 at 1st, 1 every 4 levels, non-proficiency penalty -3
Weapons Allowed: axe, hand; club; crossbow, light; dagger; dart; javelin; knife; sap; scimitar; sling; spear; staff; sword (any except two-handed)
Armor Allowed: padded, leather, studded leather, ring mail, scale mail, elfin chain, magical chain mail
Shield: no
Oil: yes
Poison: ?

This bard class is very similar to the version in the PHB. Except for any differences listed here, it can be assumed that this class is the same as that listed in the PHB.

The first and biggest change is that now the class can be taken at 1st level as a stand-alone class, i.e. the character need not go through levels as a fighter or thief to become a bard. The second major change is that the bard class is no longer druidic in nature (no pun intended). Bards no longer receive the powers of a druid nor are they able to cast druid spells.

A bard's "name level" is 10, and the maximum level of the class is 23 as it is in the PHB. The bard will belong to one of the 8 bardic colleges as described in the PHB. The experience point requirements have changed, these are as follows: 2001; 4001; 8001; 16,001; 35,001; 60,001; 100,001; 175,001; 300,001; 500,001; 700,001; 900,001; 1,100,001; 1,300,001; plus an additional 200,000 x.p. per level until level 23, which requires 3,500,001 x.p.

Bards have the following abilities as they appear in the PHB:
Additional languages known: Fewer languages learned than in the PHB, but otherwise the same
Charm person or monster through song: Same as in the PHB
Legend lore and magic item identification: Same as in the PHB
Raise moral and attack through singing and poetics: Same as in the PHB
Negate song-based attacks through song: Same as in the PHB

In addition, bards receive the ability to pick pockets and hear noise as a thief 2 levels lower, and can read languages as a thief 3 levels higher.

Instead of druid powers and spells, bards can create magic through song. They have their own "spell" list that incorporates a bit of magic-user, illusionist, and druid magic.

[AxeMental]

Very interesting Cias. Bones, I haven't seen the Dragon Bard, if someone could post it here.

Yeah, I'm with Foster on this one: They are elight , 2. complete badassses, 3. hooked in with the woods/druids some how (the whole druid secret agent thing is a pretty cool way of thinking of it).

Doing the progression described in the PH feels right. But what has always bugged me is having no connection to the class for so long (just assumed background crap). Why not make that assumed background crap more meaningful.

Somehow link them to their eventual class at 1st but still req. the Thief and Fighter progressions. That way your not changing things that much. Start them out with with some title like Bardic aqualite, and give them the ability to identify stuff at first. Maybe have them speak druidic at first, and ranger like survival skills. Perhaps hold off on the music singing stuff as that seems to be the source of the gayness (which as Foster mentioned, is tolerable as a "cover", secret ninja open a can of whoopasss on you kind of thing).

[PapersAndPaychecks]

I can see it now...

Bard progression table

Experience .	Level .	Equivalent .	Title .
0-2,000	1	Fighter/1	Closet pinko
2,001-4,000	2	Fighter/2	Prancing Fairy
4,001-8,000	3	Fighter/3	Mincing Queen
8,001-16,000	4	Fighter/4	Shirtlifter
16,001-32,000	5	Fighter/5	Fruit
32,001-33,250	6	Thief/1	Fudgepacker
33,251-34,500	7	Thief/2	Pillow Biter
(etc)	(etc)	(etc)	(etc)
Lots	20	Bard/10	Liberace

[dzubak]

Not sure how long these will last as they are not my website -so get em while their hot!. I found them Wednesday on Dragonsfoot looking for Cias's old post.

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You should be able to right click the above links, select open in new window, and then save the images to you hard drive. If someone is having trouble let me know.

EDIT: Made the URLs a direct link to the image file instead of the Image Shack page.

[Ska]

PNP---that is a great bard table if I ever saw one

Seriously though, I think Foster is right about this. Many try to imitate the bard. These are the lip-sticked up, frolicking fair haired types who walk into taverns strumming some instrument. Of course, if the crowds mood is ok they may come out unharmed. If not, then the feathered cap worn by the fop is likley now the good luck charm of the half-orc who helped himself to it after.....well, after bad things.

Now the Gellor (1e ) bard is something else. A total bad ass who basically dresses better than most. They wear leather or chain mixed with top of the line clothing. A 1e bard will walk into a bar, pull out his instrument of choice, behead the same half orc with the above feathered cap, and then proceed with an early-ish sounding Jethro-Tull song. Axe, these guys just F-ing rock. There is a reason I think EGG made them fighterand thieves first....and Foster already discussed it.